tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post8714821388968605869..comments2023-05-23T06:58:05.579-04:00Comments on Fugue for Tinhorns: There goes Joe Drape againGlenn Cravenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-86878129015722640552009-11-02T13:00:21.385-05:002009-11-02T13:00:21.385-05:00Apologies for the link to the now-deleted post abo...Apologies for the link to the now-deleted post above, and to the person who was impersonated.<br /><br />I can't tell that there are links in the name when approving a blog comment from my e-mail address.Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-15814609414080752852009-11-01T14:28:42.768-05:002009-11-01T14:28:42.768-05:00Re Anonymous:
I don't understand why there is...Re Anonymous:<br /><br />I don't understand why there is so much cloak and dagger mystery about this. Facts are facts, and if there are misdeeds being done, the authorities, for one, need to know about them. If they won't act, then speaking plainly in print leaves them with little room to wiggle.<br /><br />If, on the other hand, this information is from secondary sources, hearsay, etc., then it cannot be taken without some concern about reliability.<br /><br />Frankfrank mitchellhttp://fmitchell07.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-71194505893028295462009-11-01T13:08:24.768-05:002009-11-01T13:08:24.768-05:00Glenn,
You wrote, "I continue to maintain, a...Glenn,<br /><br />You wrote, "I continue to maintain, and nobody has provided evidence to the contrary, that there isn't the unanimity on the horse racing medication issue (especially legal medications) that there is in, for this example, cycling."<br /><br />Going back to the top, where does Drape say, or even intimate, that there is unanimity?<br /><br />You quote him saying, "Horse racing is under intense scrutiny for its use of illegal drugs, overuse of legal medications and lax oversight, all of which many veterinarians believe are part of the reason the United States has the world's worst mortality rate for Thoroughbreds."<br /><br />Nothing about it being unanimous.<br /><br />Hence, logic suggests your motives are other than what you state.<br /><br />If Drape had claimed there was unanimity, then your complaint would be justified. He didn't, and yours is not, at least based on the parameters you have outlined.Nick Klingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-16993772474071556412009-11-01T12:42:45.583-05:002009-11-01T12:42:45.583-05:00Whatever the Paper of Record says, wherever in its...Whatever the Paper of Record says, wherever in its paper it says it, should be taken with a grain of salt - if not disregarded entirely. Remember Page 1's WMDs? And as this paper has so little regard for Thoroughbred Racing, why read it at all? In fact I say: Fahrenheit 451 for the new york times.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-71981281503651136992009-11-01T10:44:32.060-05:002009-11-01T10:44:32.060-05:00Look through the Top 20 trainer chart and you'...Look through the Top 20 trainer chart and you'll find that indeed about a third of the names there belong to people who would have been kicked out or at least severely punished years ago if they operated in another racing jurisdiction. <br /><br />The cycling analogy is actually a good one on a number of levels, IMO. I'll try to put up a post about that topic later today or, more likely, tomorrow.malcerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02913127739083446726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-42190380386950145422009-11-01T08:49:32.723-05:002009-11-01T08:49:32.723-05:00And Glenn, I just want better uniform industry-wid...And Glenn, I just want better uniform industry-wide policing of drugs, breakdowns, deaths and unethical treatment of the horses. <br /><br />D. Masterscoeurdeferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06371494048326912875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-12997746248960996112009-11-01T08:45:17.683-05:002009-11-01T08:45:17.683-05:00malcer: That was pretty funny.... and I have been...malcer: That was pretty funny.... and I have been accused of being flowery (or would that be "hyperbolic"?) on more than one occasion. Google is up there with Wiki pages in my reference world; just more "paid for" search results than Wiki.<br /><br />After rereading Drape and FFT ad naseum, I still don't see the problem. But then I guess that makes that situation exclusively mine. 22 paragraphs and that one paragraph's what bugs Mr. FFT (plus Drape's IWR piece, among others)?. OK...it's your sandbox and your the journalist, but I'm the reader and I don't think you've made your case to me. If Drape is so bad at attribution, why isn't his editor slapping his hand (I know, different subject)?<br /><br />It is my understanding that drugs in North American racing would appear to be a problem, particularly when compared to international racing. Finding studies and "white papers" on the subject are not easily found, just as the breakdown, injury stats appear to be debatable, incomplete and frequently vaporous. Why is that?FFT chooses to focus on Drape's lack of attribution. Fine. I find the issue of Mullin's being able to race with a record of multiple (that would be more than 2, Glenn) violations in other NA racing jurisdictions, lengthy time to ejudicate tragic. That he is in the top ranks of trainers (that would be wins and purse monies, Glenn) with a respectable client list is just plain sad. If this guys is at the top, then I'm going to start having nightmares about the situation more than certainly going on at the bottom levels of NA racing. But I can only extrapolate based on numbers of TBs in killpens like New Holland and Enmuclaw (sp?) and USDA slaughter export numbers....guess that makes that observation nothing more than an opinion piece.<br /><br />D. Masterscoeurdeferhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06371494048326912875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-66988256333381219072009-11-01T08:31:51.594-05:002009-11-01T08:31:51.594-05:00Malcer,
I conceded that the search was flimsy, al...Malcer,<br /><br />I conceded that the search was flimsy, although frankly I was surprised to find that nobody in the first 20 hits had used the term "lax oversight" in connection (anywhere in a document) with horse racing medications, other than Joe Drape and myself.<br /><br />The point already has been made that when Drape and the New York Times actually linked to supporting documents in connection with his several claims (including "lax oversight") a reading of those documents actually revealed no apparent references at all to lax (or bad, or poor, or weak, or flimsy, or crappy, or the synonym of your choice) oversight of the medication rules in any particular jurisdiction, let alone broadly across horse racing.<br /><br />That's where this "puritanical" stand of mine began. I decided to follow the bread crumbs that Drape left for readers related to the I Want Revenge article and found that those crumbs didn't lead us to the information his reporting, in effect, promised.<br /><br />I must continue to emphasize: I know that drugs in American racing are a problem.<br /><br />I just want better reporting on the issue, and I want those who claim they have scandalous information to actually be bold enough to stand up and do something with it.Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-33082053274114468542009-11-01T08:23:14.575-05:002009-11-01T08:23:14.575-05:00The drug issue in cycling, in my opinion, is actua...The drug issue in cycling, in my opinion, is actually a more obvious and well-reported issue than are medications -- legal and illegal -- in horse racing.<br /><br />At the 1998 Tour de France, one-third of all teams and riders either were caught doping or withdrew rather than be caught. Are six or seven of the horses in the Kentucky Derby running on ILLEGAL medications every year? ... If so, somebody with that knowledge and enough courage to stand up and say so, say so.<br /><br />Floyd Landis was disqualified from his victory in the 2006 Tour de France on a doping charge. In 2007, Michael Rasmussen was fired by his team after learning that he had lied about his training whereabouts in June; Rasmussen was leading the race when sacked. Also in 2007, Alexandre Vinokourov, a pre-race favorite, was disqualified for doping after winning a time trial. <br /><br />But in the 25-year history of the Breeders' Cup, not a single horse has tested positive for a Class 1 or Class 2 banned substance.<br /><br />I am in favor of stricter medication standards that are universal across jurisdictions. I am in favor of harsher punishments for violators, including lifetime bans.<br /><br />But I continue to maintain, and nobody has provided evidence to the contrary, that there isn't the unanimity on the horse racing medication issue (especially legal medications) that there is in, for this example, cycling.<br /><br />When you can't get neighboring states to agree on what substances and levels of those substances are allowable -- and certainly veterinarians and other equine health experts are involved in setting and policing those rules -- then it's difficult to make sweeping generalizations about what unidentified experts believe on this issue. It's pretty much obligatory to attribute those statements, because I'm sure we can go out and find people to go on record to the contrary.<br /><br />And plenty of people who would give you a contrary opinion if their identity would be protected so nobody could ever hold them to their words.Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-26388323252773249982009-11-01T06:53:43.795-05:002009-11-01T06:53:43.795-05:00On a sidenote: your Googlesearch for "lax ove...On a sidenote: your Googlesearch for "lax oversight" is a bit lax in itself. A little disingenuous to use such a specific term for a semi-representative search. Try "'thoroughbred racing'+drug+problem+oversight" or really any combination of the more general terms racing, drug and oversight and you'll see that this topic is hardly a Drape exclusive.<br /><br />Fun fact: there are exactly zero ghits for "'puritanical journalistic stance'+watergate". Obviously no one has ever discussed journalistic ethics in re Watergate before you and Coeurdefer did ;-).<br /><br />(Apologies to Coeurdefer for making his Iron Heart a "Flowery Heart" in my last comment; honest mistake).malcerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02913127739083446726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-3409092898617920832009-11-01T05:31:36.466-05:002009-11-01T05:31:36.466-05:00I have to agree with Coeurdefleur and Nick Kling h...I have to agree with Coeurdefleur and Nick Kling here, this is pretty much a 50-comment non-issue. <br /><br />Neither the statement that 'a lot of vets are concerned with racing's medication policies' nor the often-proved fact that North America is the world leader in breakdown rate among relevant racing jurisdictions is controversial. To cite the AAEP as an authority is akin to citing a White House spokesperson about Watergate in February of 1973 or citing a 2002 report by the MLB's practitioners association about drugs - those guys make a living cooperating with the crooks. <br />There have been plenty of anonymous and non-anonymous sources for Drape's statement, as anybody familiar with the topic should be aware of.<br /><br />I appreciate your journalistic ethics (even though I doubt they are followed quite as strictly at your own paper), but it should still be allowed to include statements that have been sourced and discussed oftentimes. By your standards, every mention of the senate as the more powerful of the two chambers of the American parliament would have to go off into a long political systems discussion on <i>why</i> it's fair and generally accepted to label them as such.<br /><br />Would you also find it unacceptable if Drape had written that there's a "drug problem in professional cycling", just like that?malcerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02913127739083446726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-17102940830848445992009-10-31T23:29:13.611-04:002009-10-31T23:29:13.611-04:00Wait, how did I miss this one?
Anonymous at 4:34 ...Wait, how did I miss this one?<br /><br />Anonymous at 4:34 p.m. ... have you talked an extra five hours to Joe Drape already today?<br /><br />Or are you a different anonymous vet than the one who visited a little before 9 today and said he/she had talked with Drape for at least five hours?Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-27096962090016348392009-10-31T22:56:08.556-04:002009-10-31T22:56:08.556-04:00Strangely, Drape doesn't even cite "anony...Strangely, Drape doesn't even cite "anonymous" veterinarians. He typically doesn't cite anyone at all and, in my first critique of his work, I showed that the citations he and the New York Times did provide actually didn't contain the evidence necessary to support his story's claims.<br /><br />Repeatedly in his reporting, Joe Drape makes the claim that "many veterinarians" have made or would agree with these statements that legal medications and "lax oversight" lead to the high breakdown rate in the United States. Like that's unassailable common knowledge.<br /><br />I don't know that it IS common knowledge. If you have studies, expert testimony or other hard evidence directly linking legal meds to the high U.S. breakdown rate, please provide them. Joe Drape sure doesn't.<br /><br />Certainly it's a strongly held opinion of a certain (obviously hard to determine) percentage of those who are fans, horsemen, vets and others involved in horse racing. But strongly held opinions can't be passed off as equal in certainty to (incorporating an example from above) the sun rising in the east.<br /><br />I'm sure Joe Drape would be pleased to know that you're letting this keep you up so late, though.Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-18362103408831781762009-10-31T22:25:36.057-04:002009-10-31T22:25:36.057-04:00Yes, you are. What, exactly is your complaint? Are...Yes, you are. What, exactly is your complaint? Are you unaware that anonymous sources have a place in American journalism?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-46865875180083569682009-10-31T22:02:12.979-04:002009-10-31T22:02:12.979-04:00Think about it. You complain that I am uninformed ...Think about it. You complain that I am uninformed in response to my complaint that Joe Drape's reporting doesn't provide enough information.<br /><br />I'm the idiot?Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-29943975858234877152009-10-31T21:56:51.257-04:002009-10-31T21:56:51.257-04:00like I said, you are an idiotlike I said, you are an idiotAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-59695708974767492272009-10-31T21:49:00.511-04:002009-10-31T21:49:00.511-04:00Gosh, wouldn't it be nice if someone like Joe ...Gosh, wouldn't it be nice if someone like Joe Drape wrote something that actually informed me, then?Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-90480157706094597542009-10-31T21:45:18.623-04:002009-10-31T21:45:18.623-04:00Yeah, Glenn, thats all fine and dandy, bottom line...Yeah, Glenn, thats all fine and dandy, bottom line is that you don't have a clue, and you should come clean that you haven't spent one iota of time investigating,besides all your bloviating, and that you don't know what goes on with horses pointing to G1 races in AmericaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-83187881846786133632009-10-31T21:43:29.928-04:002009-10-31T21:43:29.928-04:00It certainly is, which has significantly broadened...It certainly is, which has significantly broadened our ability to communicate while shrinking the will among some to bear personal responsibility for what they say.Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-49454050677209999422009-10-31T21:29:05.063-04:002009-10-31T21:29:05.063-04:00So,is this the internet, or what, Mr. Craven?So,is this the internet, or what, Mr. Craven?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-21389996391890360022009-10-31T21:03:26.054-04:002009-10-31T21:03:26.054-04:00My small contribution is offering opinion, seeking...My small contribution is offering opinion, seeking truth, accuracy and transparency both in the industry and in the reporting on that industry, and making a small investment of my own in that industry while hopefully doing it "the right way."<br /><br />As for anonymous commenters, I'd rather someone have the fortitude and courtesy to use their name. If they have something that seems to be of substance to contribute, it allows me to weigh those comments based on who delivered them; their known or likely experience, knowledge or reputation.<br /><br />And if they have nothing of substance to contribute, well, it's still of interest to know who hates your guts.Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-49945174608565679392009-10-31T20:36:32.041-04:002009-10-31T20:36:32.041-04:00Just above the space where I am writing this comme...Just above the space where I am writing this comment, you say that you welcome comments, criticism, and debate. You will not tolerate jerks and the vulgar. Sound policy, and kudos to you for declaring it.<br /><br />But several times here, you have denigrated the anonymous commenters, some of whom appear to be neither jerks nor vulgar. So if you would prefer that people not comment anonymously, why not prevent your site from accepting anonymous comments, rather than accepting them and then belittling them?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-53891587429772570292009-10-31T20:07:29.766-04:002009-10-31T20:07:29.766-04:00and, your contribution and/or participation is wha...and, your contribution and/or participation is what?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-42632150058419275062009-10-31T19:58:52.247-04:002009-10-31T19:58:52.247-04:00Glad to do it, and to attach my name to it every d...Glad to do it, and to attach my name to it every day.Glenn Cravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09760553404742644042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1266573065584680131.post-66358328158438701842009-10-31T19:35:01.088-04:002009-10-31T19:35:01.088-04:00You're so welcome, Glenn, espescially in light...You're so welcome, Glenn, espescially in light of your heavy contribution to the elevated enhancement of the Sport of American horseracing!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com